For me it came so far that i felt obliged to vote because i thought i want something to change. In the last eight years i have voted 4 times, you probably 5. New coalition were formed but the course that sailed didn't change. Invasion Afghanistan, support a war, privacy-policy, camera's everywhere, healthcare. It's a big spectacle, live television, the politician get even more presentation courses then Letterman and Leno together and they take it because they can't back down they can't say i don't agree with this beacuse i'm not only a talking head i'm human. This means that the system of politics is becoming a spectatcle, an event. And i can't look or read about this elections anymore, it doesn't make it real for me it's a big fake an illusion. I can understand that you think it's a bit easy to attack democracy, it's the holy thing and if we start doubting the honesty of our democracy, what do we have?? And i don;t think you don't have to have an alternative "marktwerking" a fancy word that came over the ocean and landed in our newspapers and TV's. This is my freedom to say DON'T VOTE. Nobody shows up we have to start thinking about an alternative. Neccesity is the mother of invention!!!
you are not obliged to vote, you have alternatives. for example to admit that this is the system or to realize that the world is run by far others then yourself or that a vote leads to anybodies benefit but to politicians,themselves! don't swallow everything, i couldn't agree more!
What is the sense of voting if half of the people don't know what they are voting for. Poor people voting right wing and they don't no shit what's the consequences. Majority of the people don't understand politics, they need a guy who can talk their language. In that sense nothing wrong with presentation lessons. Unfortunately it's always the crazy people who are best at reaching the people. So we need times of shit to get people really involved and to understand what it is all about. And.. to get immigrants aware they have to vote to. I think politics has to change all the time to keep peoples attention. I try to be positive.... better right wing now in the open then snoozing under water. We possibly need bad times to create the moment for a real hero to stand up. I'm talking hero now because that's what it is about if you want to reach the majority of the people. Or what you think? Can we avoid populism?
..Hey martin!!! i don t really know how to make people understand sometimes that left wing is not the best always!!! When i grew up there were so many corruption....I m a squatter.. and I see how this small societies works....Holland is also a small society..but it is based on economy and strategies...STRATEGIES ..that s what politics is! What kind of strategie does Holland need in this moment?
wow I came back to conversation (after my question) too late but thanks very interesting and many dillema's recognise, I have not voted for national politics ever have been hiding behind VS pasport also complex thing. I think coming from similar motivation a fellow artist action, did you hear about it? Herstemmen. It's serious but humerous too.
but Martien, I didn't introduce marktwerking in our discourse you did it, posting the pas, on a very very much used advertisement market place brandname ''marktplaats''. So I am reacting to your work and was wondering if you are aware that you are still doing sort of the same as what you are so opposed to. find this utterly interesting.
'we don't need another hero' - tina turner look at barack obama, what a lame hero he is. do you really believe he brought change? a pop-cultural phenomena like warhol, like kennedy meanwhile the gulf of mexico is getting more and more filled with oil, is gonna come over to europe via the gulf stream, and then??? the biggest evironmental mess ever is happening right now, while everybody is watching football, but lets not talk about this now...
and merel i think we have 'bad times' right now!? of course everything could be worse but i won't wish for that, for any kind of resurrection or mental awakening, people live their lives with eyes closed, jus look at some daily decisions people have to make,decisions concerning ONLY their lives...oh my god !!!! since we live in a mass society we will always have to deal with the decision of individuals on the one side and the interrests of a bigger group. people always behave in a groups different then alone.but there is still the difference between behaviour and habits...hmmm?!/ my way out.
Hello. I just want to react on some things. I think talking in dichotomies (i don't know if i spell it right), but left-right, liberalism-conservatism, and so on, creates paradoxes and it's nothing wrong with that but the politicians at the time try to hide this paradox with the language they use. For example the liberal party wants to increase the activity for the war-on-terrorism and also they also want the maintenance the traditional civil rights, this is a big contradiction because the former works against the latter.
I'm not talking about small societies here but about a system, capitalism, communism, tribes or whatever. What i think what happens now in politics is that politician use the language as currency instead of -like in communism- language as language. In a capitalistic society politics is liable -in function- of economics as opposite to a communistic society. I'm not propaganding dogmatic communism here, but it is interesting.
It's good that this get into in a discussion but i think we're not all on the same line here but feel free to post what you want. That's the freedom of speech.
Judy i think there's a difference between using marktplaats en marktwerking, i think what you mean though, the thing with marktplaats is that it's a platform to exchange services and products, nothing wrong with that, i love buying and selling, but it is voluntary instead of healthcare for example that you need, and can become really messy when you give it hands of people with their own agenda. This is so far. Have a good weekend.
I don't think there's a thing like communistic language, but what i mean with "..language used.... -like in communism- language as language" is that the language is used, i think, more like in a philosophical way, not reasoning with arguments that are effected by money, profit, freedom (in a capitalistic matter). The ideology of communism has his origin also in language, maybe that's a big reason for it. I think it should be clear now, if not try harder ;)
me too long time ago...!
BeantwoordenVerwijderenseams a bit easy to attack a so called democracy; kun je iets specifieker zijn, en wat is je alternatief: de werking van de markt?
BeantwoordenVerwijderenfirst comes war, then the economy and then democracy e.g. germany after ww2, irak and afghanistan now...more to come soon!
BeantwoordenVerwijderenFor me it came so far that i felt obliged to vote because i thought i want something to change. In the last eight years i have voted 4 times, you probably 5. New coalition were formed but the course that sailed didn't change. Invasion Afghanistan, support a war, privacy-policy, camera's everywhere, healthcare. It's a big spectacle, live television, the politician get even more presentation courses then Letterman and Leno together and they take it because they can't back down they can't say i don't agree with this beacuse i'm not only a talking head i'm human. This means that the system of politics is becoming a spectatcle, an event. And i can't look or read about this elections anymore, it doesn't make it real for me it's a big fake an illusion. I can understand that you think it's a bit easy to attack democracy, it's the holy thing and if we start doubting the honesty of our democracy, what do we have?? And i don;t think you don't have to have an alternative "marktwerking" a fancy word that came over the ocean and landed in our newspapers and TV's. This is my freedom to say DON'T VOTE. Nobody shows up we have to start thinking about an alternative. Neccesity is the mother of invention!!!
BeantwoordenVerwijderenyou are not obliged to vote, you have alternatives. for example to admit that this is the system or to realize that the world is run by far others then yourself or that a vote leads to anybodies benefit but to politicians,themselves! don't swallow everything, i couldn't agree more!
BeantwoordenVerwijderenWhat is the sense of voting if half of the people don't know what they are voting for. Poor people voting right wing and they don't no shit what's the consequences. Majority of the people don't understand politics, they need a guy who can talk their language. In that sense nothing wrong with presentation lessons. Unfortunately it's always the crazy people who are best at reaching the people. So we need times of shit to get people really involved and to understand what it is all about. And.. to get immigrants aware they have to vote to.
BeantwoordenVerwijderenI think politics has to change all the time to keep peoples attention. I try to be positive.... better right wing now in the open then snoozing under water. We possibly need bad times to create the moment for a real hero to stand up. I'm talking hero now because that's what it is about if you want to reach the majority of the people. Or what you think? Can we avoid populism?
..Hey martin!!! i don t really know how to make people understand sometimes that left wing is not the best always!!! When i grew up there were so many corruption....I m a squatter.. and I see how this small societies works....Holland is also a small society..but it is based on economy and strategies...STRATEGIES ..that s what politics is!
BeantwoordenVerwijderenWhat kind of strategie does Holland need in this moment?
wow I came back to conversation (after my question) too late but thanks very interesting and many dillema's recognise, I have not voted for national politics ever have been hiding behind VS pasport also complex thing. I think coming from similar motivation a fellow artist action, did you hear about it? Herstemmen. It's serious but humerous too.
BeantwoordenVerwijderenhttp://www.johanvanderdong.nl/?p=Nieuws&menu=horzmenu
but Martien, I didn't introduce marktwerking in our discourse you did it, posting the pas, on a very very much used advertisement market place brandname ''marktplaats''.
BeantwoordenVerwijderenSo I am reacting to your work and was wondering if you are aware that you are still doing sort of the same as what you are so opposed to.
find this utterly interesting.
'we don't need another hero' - tina turner
BeantwoordenVerwijderenlook at barack obama, what a lame hero he is.
do you really believe he brought change? a pop-cultural phenomena like warhol, like kennedy meanwhile the gulf of mexico is getting more and more filled with oil, is gonna come over to europe via the gulf stream, and then??? the biggest evironmental mess ever is happening right now, while everybody is watching football, but lets not talk about this now...
and merel i think we have 'bad times' right now!? of course everything could be worse but i won't wish for that, for any kind of resurrection or mental awakening, people live their lives with eyes closed, jus look at some daily decisions people have to make,decisions concerning ONLY their lives...oh my god !!!!
BeantwoordenVerwijderensince we live in a mass society we will always have to deal with the decision of individuals on the one side and the interrests of a bigger group. people always behave in a groups different then alone.but there is still the difference between behaviour and habits...hmmm?!/ my way out.
asia, no left/right wing but chickenwings!
BeantwoordenVerwijderenHello. I just want to react on some things. I think talking in dichotomies (i don't know if i spell it right), but left-right, liberalism-conservatism, and so on, creates paradoxes and it's nothing wrong with that but the politicians at the time try to hide this paradox with the language they use. For example the liberal party wants to increase the activity for the war-on-terrorism and also they also want the maintenance the traditional civil rights, this is a big contradiction because the former works against the latter.
BeantwoordenVerwijderenI'm not talking about small societies here but about a system, capitalism, communism, tribes or whatever. What i think what happens now in politics is that politician use the language as currency instead of -like in communism- language as language. In a capitalistic society politics is liable -in function- of economics as opposite to a communistic society. I'm not propaganding dogmatic communism here, but it is interesting.
It's good that this get into in a discussion but i think we're not all on the same line here but feel free to post what you want. That's the freedom of speech.
Judy i think there's a difference between using marktplaats en marktwerking, i think what you mean though, the thing with marktplaats is that it's a platform to exchange services and products, nothing wrong with that, i love buying and selling, but it is voluntary instead of healthcare for example that you need, and can become really messy when you give it hands of people with their own agenda. This is so far. Have a good weekend.
ok, but nobody knows what you mean by communistic language...
BeantwoordenVerwijderenI don't think there's a thing like communistic language, but what i mean with "..language used.... -like in communism- language as language" is that the language is used, i think, more like in a philosophical way, not reasoning with arguments that are effected by money, profit, freedom (in a capitalistic matter).
BeantwoordenVerwijderenThe ideology of communism has his origin also in language, maybe that's a big reason for it. I think it should be clear now, if not try harder ;)